The Present Illness

Shut Down Dilley Detention Center with Dr. Lara Jones

• Alyssa Burgart & Arghavan Salles • Season 1 • Episode 29

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0:00 | 57:11

Pediatrician Dr. Lara Jones discusses advocating to free children from ICE detention facilities. Follow her @AskLaDoctora.

Kids in ICE Detention

Get kids out of ICE detention

  • Call your representatives (202)-224-3121. Public pressure really works and has led to recent releases of children and congressional hearings on this issue! 
  • Text “GO ESH” TO 50409 to send your congress members a letter telling them to end child detention
  • Sign Ms Rachel's petition
  • Find pre-written advocacy letters by the team on Chili to help organize collective action on child detention
  • Donate to commissary funds for families in Dilley (Each Step Home)
  • Talk to one person you know about this. Remain curious and center the children.
  • Are you a local organizer? Bring your ideas to us let us know how we can support you locally in the community

💊Take Two and Call Me in the Morning💊

  • Dr. Jones goes on a walk with her toddler
  • Dr. Burgart talks about seeing a Giant Sea Bass in Catalina - they can grow to up to

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Credits

  • Production by Arghavan Salles & Alyssa Burgart
  • Editing by Alyssa Burgart
  • Theme Music by Joseph Uphoff
  • Social Media by Arghavan Salles
SPEAKER_02

So we have malnourishment, we have inability to sleep, we have psychological, this is essentially psychological and emotional abuse. Um I would, if you brought a child with that environment to me, that they're losing weight, they're wetting themselves, they're not getting enough nutrition, they're not able to sleep, I would absolutely recommend that they be removed from the home. And I would contact CPS. And the only difference here is apparently CPS doesn't have jurisdiction over um these children.

SPEAKER_00

Hello, fellow nerds. Welcome to another episode of The Present Illness, the podcast where two physicians try to make sense of a world that's a little febrile and definitely underdiagnosed. I'm Alyssa Berghard, an anesthesiologist and bioethicist who tracks news and health law like their EKGs, full of spikes and surprises. You may notice that Argo Von Salas, your favorite surgeon scientist and doom scroller in residence, is on vacation this week. Now, the present illness is where we dig into public health, politics, culture, and ethics with a scalpel in one hand and a meme in the other. Big thanks to everyone listening. Extra love to our subscribers, and welcome to anyone who is just finding us today. We're so glad you're here. As a note to new listeners, we often talk about topics that can be can be intense and can be a little difficult to hear. You may not, you might not want to listen to this with little ones uh in the car. This week, because Argivon is on vacation, which she definitely needs, um, I wanted to have a guest on the show today. And so I am incredibly thrilled to have Dr. Lara Jones, a clinical assistant professor of pediatrics, double board certified in pediatrics and pediatric critical care, who practices in San Francisco. Um, she's here to talk about the incredible work that she's been doing advocating for children who are in ICE detention facilities. And we talked about her and her colleagues on a previous episode, um, and I'll link to those in the show notes. And, you know, unfortunately, as we've talked about on the show before, there are so many children who have been taken into ICE custody. They're being separated from their families, and we know that immense harm is being done to these kids. And so I'm incredibly thrilled to have Dr. Jones here to really help all of you understand a little bit more about what's happening in these detention f facilities. And most importantly, what are things that you can do to try to get these kids safely out of these detention facilities? Dr. Jones, welcome.

SPEAKER_02

Thank you so much. I'm so excited to be here. It's such an honor.

SPEAKER_00

I mean, I feel the same. Um Laura, tell me a little bit about well, so so for for folks who don't recall from an earlier episode, um, I have the pleasure of knowing you in real life. Um you were uh you were a critical care fellow um while I was in attending at the same hospital. And so I've I've had the pleasure of getting to know you through, you know, the thick and thin of your training. And when I came across an article in the 19th, uh, which is a news organization that I follow, and it said, you know, pediatricians demand that these kids get out of detention facilities. And I started reading it and I was I was on the couch with my family, and I was like, I know her. I know her. And that's when I reached out to you on Instagram to to really send my thanks to you. So I'm so, so grateful for the work that you've been doing, and I I can't wait to hear more about what led you to this work.

SPEAKER_02

Thank you so much. Yeah, it's I it's been an incredible, incredible journey. Um, it really, I mean, it started with one moment. Um I I actually, you know, don't have a history of of doing advocacy work. I was very newly online as a physician, just starting to to dabble in education and um just advocating for, you know, general safety of children and their well-being as a pediatric critical care doctor. Um, and it was truly just like one moment that um I saw that photograph of that boy Liam, and I was completely beside myself. Um, as a mother, I was gutted. He looked pale, he looked dehydrated. You could just tell from the bunny ear picture to the picture of him in the detention cell with Joaquin Castro that he was unwell, that he was in a place that was depriving him of his basic needs.

SPEAKER_00

Um and no, thank you. For this is something that I think is really unique about physicians, and especially physicians like you and I, who routinely, every day, we're taking care of kids, and that means that part of what we're doing is a physical exam. So, like exactly I cannot go out into the world and not notice if a child doesn't look like they're doing okay. Exactly. Can you tell us a little bit about the things about your that you were able to notice that maybe other people wouldn't have thought about it?

SPEAKER_02

Yeah. Absolutely. And I always say this to like trainees, especially in the field of pediatrics and especially in the field of pediatric critical care, that really 90% of what you need to know about a patient, you can tell from looking at them from the door. You know, I can see right away. Um, what I was looking at when I what I saw in him, I saw that his color was poor. He looked pale. Um, his lips looked like they didn't have, you know, good color. So I thought he looked dehydrated. Um, he was clearly exhausted because he's five years old and he's completely asleep in this uncomfortable position in a fully lit room in the middle of the day. That's very unusual because five-year-olds don't usually nap. Some of them do, but in general, it's not like a typical thing for a five-year-old, and certainly not in like an uncomfortable position in a brightly lit room. So he's completely unconscious in a setting that would be, I would think, pretty stimulating. So he's clearly exhausted. Um and um, and then that was coupled with the history that was reported, which was that, you know, he wasn't eating well, which is not surprising because the conditions, the food there has been reported to have worms in it and mold, um, and that they don't have any, you know, fresh fruits or vegetables for kids. So knowing what the food is like, it wasn't surprising to hear that he wasn't eating. And then also with the history that he had had a fever and vomiting, I immediately thought, you know, this kid is probably severely dehydrated, potentially also has enough an infection, and he needs to get the heck out of there. Like, what are they doing with this child?

SPEAKER_00

Yeah. Absolutely. So your doctor brain really kicked in.

SPEAKER_02

My doctor brain kicked in and went into full-blown, you know, doctor panic mode, in addition to my mother brain that was like, this is just gut-wrenching. But my doctor brain said, this kid needs medical attention. Why is he not getting medical attention? A child who isn't eating and who has a fever needs to go see a doctor. Why isn't he being brought to a doctor? And the more I looked into it and realized, you know, what's going on with him and at this facility, the more I realized a lot of these children are suffering from medical neglect. They need medical care and they're not getting it. And this has been confirmed by multiple reports from families. This these there are public court filings documenting um at least 300 uh medical concerns that have been reported by families, that they're not getting seen by physicians, that their symptoms are being ignored, they're not getting their medications that they need. Um and so there's a huge pattern that we're seeing of medical neglect in these facilities, which is just one of many other problems.

SPEAKER_00

And for for folks who, you know, aren't aware, you know, if if you were, if a child like this came to your attention while you were providing clinical care and you found out, let's say this was not a child in detention, but a family a child who was living in a home, you would you would be concerned. You would be like, what's what supports are missing for this child that this is what's happening?

SPEAKER_02

Absolutely. I what I like to tell people, like I've been asked before, you know, what are the what are the exact, you know, things that you're worried about? What I try to tell people is this here's a summary of of what the conditions are like. This is all based on, you know, published court filings and accounts from family members. Just picture a child that you know and love and imagine they're taken from their home, they're put in a detention cell that's essentially like a prison. They're out of their familiar environment. The food has mold and worms. This is reported by multiple people there. Um, the water is so poor that it makes them sick. They've multiple people have reported they get stomach aches, they have diarrhea, rashes. So the water is undrinkable. And if they want clean water, they have to buy it through the commissary. Um, they're not getting school. The lights are on 24-7, so they can't sleep. Um, they've reported that the rooms smell like urine because the children often wet themselves out of stress. Children who are previously potty trained are wetting themselves. So you have these children in these horrific environments. There's multiple reports of children losing weight, which as a pediatrician, I know is not normal. Children are not supposed to lose weight, they're supposed to be growing. So if they're not gaining weight and they're losing weight, then they're being malnourished. Um, so we have malnourishment, we have inability to sleep, we have psychological, this is essentially psychological and emotional abuse. Um, I would, if you brought a child with that environment to me, that they're losing weight, they're wetting themselves, they're not getting enough nutrition, they're not able to sleep, I would absolutely recommend that they be removed from the home. And I would contact CPS. And the only difference here is apparently CPS doesn't have jurisdiction over um these children. And there's hundreds of them.

SPEAKER_00

Well, thank you for that. I think the level of granularity is something that's oftentimes lost, right? When people are seeing you know, they're seeing the headlines in the news. They're seeing like, oh, there's this detention facility and it's and it's so terrible and like things are terrible. But I think that understanding the degree of specificity that you've just shared really brings home I mean, no child, no human being should be forced to endure any of these things. Cause not only are what all the things that you've just described, I actually was just jotting down notes to myself, like clearly these things are abusive. It's torture. I mean, these are this is torture.

SPEAKER_02

This is it is medical neglect, it is emotional and psychological abuse and torture. It is. I I I think we have to, I think you're right. I think we have to start talking about like not sanitizing the language around this, you know, and not and not, you know, trying to sugarcoat it. This is child abuse. It is abusive to a child to deprive them of sleep. It is abusive to a child to deprive them of proper nutrition to the point that they are losing weight. This recent case that we had, the two-year-old Caliph, he's a healthy, happy boy. He went into that detention center. He did not eat solid food for 12 days. And his and what the guards told the mom who asked for medical attention repeatedly, is that she was told it was a mental problem. So we have a child who is not eating solid food for 12 days. The mom is rightfully concerned and requesting medical care, and she's being gaslit and told this is a mental issue. This isn't that's not a mental issue. That's like potentially a medical emergency that he was not eating for that long. You know, that's the point in time, you know, that, you know, organs start to malfunction and shut down. You can't go that many days at that age without nutrition. And then he started having vomiting and a fever. And so I'm sure his immune system was affected by the stress of it all. And yeah, these all of these cases, um, I think their individual stories are so important because they really do highlight the degree of horror and they they show this pattern, this similar pattern of they don't have good food. They don't have adequate food, they don't have nutrition, they don't have water. And the stress is making them sick and they are not getting the appropriate medical attention. There's multiple cases that I document on my Instagram profile where I go through cases that I don't need to know more information to tell you that this is definitely medical neglect. You know, and and I think it's important.

SPEAKER_00

I mean, the government is both causing these illnesses and then denying medical attention.

SPEAKER_02

Exactly. Correct. Yes.

SPEAKER_00

Um thank you. And so you uh you ended up, you know, being inspired by this situation. Your your mom brain, your doctor brain, you're like, this is unacceptable, like we gotta do something. Um it sounds like you were a physician who was, you know, really focused on your clinical work and and not necessarily doing this sort of outward-facing advocacy. But then you got together with doctors Anita Patel and Ashley Marie Caso, and you were like, we're gonna do something. Can you tell us a little bit about how that came together?

SPEAKER_02

Yes. Um, this is I can't even stress enough that this was such a turning point in my life. And it was one of those moments that just felt like we were all placed in this spot in time for a reason because I can only describe this connection as kismet. Like it's just it was very serendipitous and very organic, and it's morphed into something that truly has been life-changing. So there was the moment that I saw that photograph of Liam and I saw it on Instagram, and it was posted by Dr. Cazo. And the next day I went to work, I couldn't even think straight. I was so upset about it. I was so worried about him. Um and I completely broke down actually. I went after I've rounds, I went to my office and I cried. And I was just like literally, I was like, I don't, I can't function with these feelings. I can't sit the moral distress of being a pediatrician and seeing a child who needs help and then knowing that they're not getting help was overwhelming to me. Um and my colleague gave me a hug, and my colleague Jackie, she's a nurse I work with. She's so wonderful. She said, I feel the same way. Let's turn these feelings into action. And so that was the beginning of Dr. Caso. I reached out to Dr. Caso that night. We started DMing each other, just kind of commiserating about how horrific this is. And we had the same kind of feeling that, like, really, it's as much for my own mental health to be active as a way to cope with how horrific it is. When you really take this in, I mean, I'm basically grieving every day for these kids. And the only way to take action, the only way to really cope with it is to take action. So I started messaging with Dr. Cazo. We put together our first draft, our first letter, which was a letter that we sent to ICE and members of Congress demanding Liam's release and medical attention for him. And we circulated that locally. We got a few dozen signatures and we sent that out. It did get a lot of public attention. Um, and then a few days later, Liam was released. And I'm not saying that it was because of us. I think it was just a coincidence that, like, that was the zeitgeist was all about, you know, what was going on with Liam. He got released, and that was our first signal that, like, hey, this isn't like a hopeless situation. Like, speaking up does work. There was so much public outcry about that case. And then a few days later he got released. So then we started, we were so happy, but then we said, well, what about all these other kids? Now that we know this, we can't unknow it. And the more we knew, the worse it gets. I mean, every new stone we unturn is it it just keeps getting worse. So a turning point, another turning point was when we got Dr. Anita Patel. Um, we saw that she, you know, she has a really big following. She's got a really long history of advocacy. She's a phenomenal pediatric critical care doctor in DC. And, you know, I had we had started like DMing her and and, you know, asking her to share things because we saw that she was also very passionate about this space. And um a mutual friend also kind of connected us as well. And I was asking him, Dr. Alok Patel, to help like help me. I'm like, what else can we do? Because I don't know what I'm truly don't know what I'm doing. I'm so new to all of this. How can we get this bigger? It needs to be bigger. We need to get these kids out. And he was like, You should talk to Dr. Anita Patel. And that cinched the trio of the three pediatricians. Once we got her on board, she was like, you know, she really led the directive of, okay, let's get this formal letter to DHS, demanding all of these children be released and laying out the just the bare minimum standards that they should adhere to while they're in detention. Um and that that was the beginning of what this has evolved into, which is the three of us pediatricians, the journalist Lydia Terrazas, who's been reporting on the ground about all these families in Delhi, um, and then the connection to Casey Revkin, who's the director of the organization Each Step Home, that has been amazing at um raising money to donate funds into the commissary accounts of these families so that they can, while they are detained, they can at least buy like water.

SPEAKER_00

But what I wanted to draw attention to for folks who don't understand about the way that commissaries work in prisons, um you know, and detention facilities are of course a type of a type of prison is it costs an immense amount of money to buy anything. And there are all these private corporations that are funded, you know, that make our prison industrial complex work. And so to even get water, it's not like you're getting the Costco deal. No. As an incarcerated person, you're paying a much higher price.

SPEAKER_02

Correct. In fact, I had people ask, can we donate water? Can we donate Costco water? Specifically, they asked because we know that's a Costco has a great deal. Um and the answer is what?

SPEAKER_00

We love a deal.

SPEAKER_02

We love a deal. I was like, that's a great idea. And I asked Casey, can we donate water? No, you can't. You have to buy the core Civic water. And you have to buy, it's like$30 for like a 12-pack of small of small water bottles just to have clean water.

SPEAKER_00

Can you tell people what Core Civic is?

SPEAKER_02

Oh, yes. I would love to tell people what Core Civic is. Core Civic is a um publicly traded for-profit company that owns many detention facilities and owns Dili, runs Dili. Um, majority shareholders are BlackRock and Vanguard, and they are basically profiting off of detaining families. And just so that everyone understands the people who are in Dilly, none of them have committed any crimes. These are not criminals, these are not the worst of the worst. These are people with asylum cases, these are people who have committed no crimes, they have done everything they are supposed to do. Many of them were detained at their regular check-ins with ICE, that they were doing what they were supposed to do. And we have gotten to a point that we we are quite literally um commodifying child suffering. So Core Civic is the company that is making profit off of imprisoning children. And people should also be aware that their retirement money might be invested in these companies. Um, and one of our, you know, things that we are trying to educate the public about beyond just the horrors of the detention facility is the finances of this. Um, and so, you know, asking these companies to divest from core civic is one thing that we think is is really important because we shouldn't be a country that decides that it's okay to profit off of imprisoning children. That's just quite insane to even say out loud.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

Yes. Yes, we are.

SPEAKER_00

You know, and and I think just seeing the quiet part said out loud uh throughout the way sp and specifically the way that children are being treated. And you know, you and I both know as people who take care of little kids is that, you know, people are kinder to little kids generally. Usually we think that children should be treated safely and should have a good home and should have education and should have an opportunity to grow up and and not experience the toxic, terrible stress of incarceration.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

Um and it's certainly terrible to see the degree to which we we did not learn from the last time that we did this in the first Trump administration. And that that's something that I have thought a lot about during this administration is I remember all those timelines, you know, all those people talking about toxic stress, the negative impact on families from family separation, then to specific medical and psychological and emotional harms that are long-lasting.

SPEAKER_02

They are.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah. The government's basically imposing aces, adverse childhood events on these kids.

SPEAKER_02

Exactly. Exactly. And this time we don't have um any excuse, right? It's like the first time it happened. If you want to be extremely generous, you can say, we learned from that. And um now we know as if it wasn't already, I mean, obvious to me, it's common sense. If you put a kid in a cage and you take away their home and you separate them from their families, they're gonna be a wreck. But but let's just give the most general assumptions and say, oh, we had no idea it would be bad for them. Now we do. Now we have multiple studies of peer-reviewed medical literature, which as we were writing our letter to DHS, we were, you know, reading through these articles that we cited. And and I was reading many of them myself to my own horror to realize truly how bad it is and how well documented the harm is. This is not a mystery. This is not news. This is well-published, documented literature specifically for children in detention. Up to 100% of kids who are detained have post-traumatic stress syndrome symptoms. 50% of children develop depression and anxiety. Um, multiple children develop nutritional deficiencies, worsening of their chronic medical conditions, um, developmental regressions and delays. They have trouble in school, they have trouble with employment later in life. So we have learned a lot. We it's published, it's out there. And so now we are in a stage where we are causing damage despite there being plenty of evidence to show that we know this is harming them. Um, and we're also doing it at um a record number. So another thing for people to be aware of um, you know, since the inauguration, uh an additional like 6,000 children have ended up in detention. That's a thousand percent increase since the inauguration. And so I want people to start putting the pieces together that we are putting children in cages at record numbers. They are trying to build more detention facilities across the country. And they are telling people that this immigration reform is about getting rid of the worst of the worst. But if you're really trying to get rid of people, then why wouldn't you just deport them? They're not deporting them, they're detaining them. And they're detaining them in these facilities that are run by these for-profit companies, which by the way, these for-profit companies, like Core Civic, are making campaign donations to members. So, yeah, I it that whole circle, I think, is really important for people to understand. There's the message that the administration is sending out that this is all about, you know, oh, you broke the law, so you gotta go. But these people have not broken the law. They are children.

SPEAKER_00

We're talking about children.

SPEAKER_02

First of all, we're talking about children. If you've if you just even if you don't want to even get into the parents, but their parents haven't broken the law either. But regardless, if you just focus on the children, the children have not broken the law. Um, they're being imprisoned. If you wanted to get rid of them, you would just deport them. You're not deporting them. You want to lock them up in cages because you're making money. You are cashing in on putting children in cages. And that's what's happening. And they want to do it, they want to build more. Just lovely, isn't it? Like I said, it just keeps getting worse. The more we talk about it, the more we learn, the worse it gets, honestly.

SPEAKER_00

Well, and this is also, and you're you're really beautifully drawing these connections because you know, for for for folks like myself who are very committed to abolition and and understanding that that is there are a lot of things that need to be undone in this country to be able to treat each other with dignity and respect and as full human beings. And what you're really showing is how xenophobia is tied to the prison industrial complex. Racism is tied to the prison industrial complex. You know, the fact that um who it is that gets jailed. Yeah, it's pretty specific right now. Right.

SPEAKER_01

Exactly.

SPEAKER_00

Certainly, if this was what was happening to I don't know, a famous person's child, we would be having a very different conversation.

SPEAKER_02

Correct. Correct. Yes, this is this is very clearly um a mission by a group of people that has decided that they don't want a certain type of people in this country. Um, or that, well, clearly, you know, they can be in the country, but they'd rather throw them in a cage and make some money off of off of that. This is um and it goes perfectly in line with the, you know, Supreme Court ruling that essentially took away um, essentially made it legal to um racially profile. You know, Ice people have asked, like, well, how do they justify, you know, all of these arrests? They don't have to. They don't have to anymore. Um, they don't have to justify it.

SPEAKER_00

Um, and so they are able to a brief interaction with law enforcement.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah. Just terrible. Yeah. Yeah. Um, yes. And there's been and I've heard firsthand reports too from um family members that I've spoken to who were previously detained and then also read about some in these the court filings, um, where they say that they are blatantly, they blatantly make racist remarks to them um all the time. So, like, for example, one mother I spoke to who was detained with her family and her two young boys, one was five and one was 11. Um, her five-year-old had a um kidney disease, and um, she was regularly asking if he could get fresh water um and fruit for to maintain hydration, which was the most important thing for him. And she was denied that. Um they they say that if you have a doctor's note, you can get water, but she asked for it multiple times and they never even brought a doctor to see it.

SPEAKER_00

So can we just let's just can we pause?

SPEAKER_02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

Have you I have never, and I I've written plenty of doctor's notes. Um I've never had to write a doctor's note to be like, you should be allowed to have access to water.

SPEAKER_02

Correct. That's insane. That's a given for survival. And and by the way, I'm pretty sure prisons have better standards than these detention centers because I'm pretty sure if you are in a federal prison that there are requirements for nutrition, clean air, water. They have standards that need to be adhered to. I don't think there are any of those standards here. They are it's just like seems like a free-for-all.

SPEAKER_00

Um, where they so many of these they operate outside of the bounds of the law because they're technically not, technically not prisons. Correct. Because no one's technically been convicted of a crime.

SPEAKER_02

Right. So there's all these loopholes that that actually make it worse than a prison because they don't even have to adhere to the basic human standards of what a prison is is um required to do. But uh the the point I wanted to make about that family was that the mom said that um they made racist remarks to them all the time, calling them, you know, spics and and whatnot. And the court filings have also said multiple times the guards, you know, call them, and Joaquin Castro recently reported on that as well. They call them wetbacks and spics, and so there's very obviously um racism that is just out in the open um and very much a part of this inhumane treatment of these these poor people. And it's just makes my stomach turn.

SPEAKER_00

Ugh. Well, let's so you you and your colleagues had had put together this letter, you'd sent it to Christy Noam. You're like, listen, I mean, she's out of a job now, but yeah, whatever. Mark Wayne can read it, I guess. Um you've had you've had some wins. Um I know there have also been some setbacks. Absolutely. Um Do you want to talk a little bit about some things that you and your colleagues have learned through this process about advocating as effectively as possible for these families?

SPEAKER_02

Yes, um, definitely. So we um, you know, especially myself, um very new to this process, um we've learned, we've learned a lot of things. One thing we've learned is, and I think the most important thing, is that speaking up um really does make a difference. Um, and so the transition from the initial sort of feeling of paralysis and helplessness that was overwhelming in the beginning has really been overcome by knowing that when you take action, um, there can be victories. And so we've had a couple victories. Um and then the let me just you tell you about some of the cases just as examples, um, because I think the cases themselves kind of highlight that process. You know, the there was the two-month-old baby boy that's pretty famous, uh, Juan Nicolas, who was detained there. And he was in significant respiratory distress, he was vomiting, he had all of these symptoms that we were all sounding the alarm online saying he needs medical attention, this is a medical emergency. And there was a lot of public attention on that case. Um, rightfully so, people were outraged. Um, and we put a lot of pressure on um lawmakers and the facility themselves to release this baby. Finally, he went to a hospital days after being ignored, um, which in and of itself is just, again, another case of blatant medical neglect because a two-month-old who's having difficulty breathing and vomiting is automatically a hospital admission. That's not a kid that you you watch at home. Um and then after he was unresponsive, two days after being um in a condition that we were saying needs hospitalization, he was finally rushed to the hospital. He was kept there for a very short amount of time, which is also highly suspicious to me and really makes me question what the care is like at these local hospitals that Core Civic is sending these kids to, because we would automatically observe a kid at least 24 to 48 hours for something like that, an episode of unresponsiveness at that age. Um, and he was discharged in like less than 12 hours. And then he was deported. He was um, his mother was quite literally abandoned at the border with her sick infant and nothing but the clothes on her back and the tiny amount of money that was in her commissary account. Um, and so one lesson that we learned from that case was um I really do believe they are retaliatory. There's been um, you know, I think that the combination of the public pressure and his medical condition um made it easier for them to just deport him.

SPEAKER_00

And so, you know, we did not deport him to a facility where he could complete his care, for example.

SPEAKER_02

I mean Correct. They quite literally left them at the border. She had no phone, she had nobody with her. The only reason she was able to be even like safely end up in a safe destination. By the way, they they they deported her, they left her at the same border where uh the same region that she had just fled from for her safety. Um, it was just because a stranger on the street, she asked a stranger on the street to borrow their phone and she had Lydia Terrassa's number memorized, the journalist from Univision who's been covering these cases, and she called Lydia, and Lydia was able to come and find her, and then we were able to stay in touch with them and and raise money through a GoFundMe. Um, and then each step home also stepped in and were able to get them flights and hotel for the first couple of nights so that they could have a place to sleep. Um so really it's because of you know, each step home and Lydia that they were able to like have a safe, this poor young mother was able to have a find a place to sleep that night. So so one one that was a major, you know, on the plus side, it was proof that, you know, these these cases are proof that, you know, speaking up does make an impact. But one negative is that we have seen many instances where there seems to be retaliation. Um, other examples are when Miss Rachel um got involved and did a video call.

SPEAKER_00

And for for people who don't have the toddler uh can you explain who Miss Rachel is?

SPEAKER_02

Yes. So Miss Rachel is this absolutely wonderful human being. She is an educator. She um does videos on YouTube where she basically teaches um young babies and toddlers uh language. And she is also um an advocate for children everywhere. She was very um vocal about supporting, you know, children in Gaza who suffered horrific, horrific abuse and injuries. Um, and so she is just um, I think one of the greatest human beings in our generation, to be quite honest. She's just like an angel. Um, and we're so happy that she, you know, has um decided to help us amplify these stories. Um and what we what we've seen is like that after this call with Miss Rachel and after other calls as well with Lydia, where they they get on a video call with a family or in a kid and they they let the kids tell their stories. Um, and the public understandably becomes outraged and they reach out and they um demand release. What we've heard directly from the families is that after these cases, the guards, um, so after one particular case after Miss Rachel, they shut down the video calls. They basically said no more video calls.

SPEAKER_00

Um they brought out all the drawings.

SPEAKER_02

The kids were they published the drawings of the children saying, like, you know, we hate it here, let us out. The guards went in and started ripping up their drawings. So um yes.

SPEAKER_01

I guess I I know.

SPEAKER_02

I like so actually what's happening is you have grown adult humans that are bullying children. I mean, that's bullying. You're going into imagine being an adult, going into a child's room and saying, I'm gonna rip up your artwork because I don't like what you said. On the positive side, I'm sorry, what? I was gonna say Miss Rachel. Thank you. Thank you, Miss Rachel. Miss Rachel deserves all the awards. Um thank, thank goodness for her, honestly. I she we were just like absolutely over the moon when we finally, you know, were able to get her attention on these kids. And and and we and as soon as she learned about it, she was, you know, we watched her go through the same kind of grief and shock that we went through of like, oh my gosh, what are you kidding me? What how how what do you mean these children are being treated this way? What do you mean they don't have nutrition? What do you mean they're not eating? What do you mean? Um, you know, we started talking to her about this five-year-old Gael, this nonverbal autistic boy who needed a special diet and wasn't getting it. And he didn't poop for 10, 11 days and his belly was swollen. We saw pictures from the video calls that mom shared with Lydia Terrazas.

SPEAKER_00

He had a belly pulse, no, that's an emergency.

SPEAKER_02

It's emergency. He could have an obstruction, he could have something really bad. And so that was the first case that she, you know, heard about and and started. So she started amplifying that story. Um, and then the next case, pretty short after that, was this little boy diver, that um sweet, sweet little genius little boy who's a spelling bee champion, who was sitting in a detention cell and worried about missing his spelling bee championship. He had been invited to go to regionals for his spelling bee. And so Miss Rachel um amplified his story and it was ended up being on NBC News and featured. And she, you know, one of the famous quotes was, I'm trying to get a kid out of jail so that he can go to a spelling bee. What an absurd sentence to say out loud, right? Um and um but because of her, you know, her advocacy and because of this, this kind of system that we've formed that includes telling these stories through the voice through Lydia Terrazas, this amazing journalist, being on the ground, talking to these families, learning their names, learning their stories, learning what their complaints and their sufferings are, sharing those stories online with great voices, large with large audiences like Miss Rachel. And then connecting them with attorneys to represent them led to, you know, we had these victories. We got Gael released, Diver released, and most recently um uh Calith, the two-year-old who didn't eat for 12 days. So on the on the plus side, what we're learning is that this advocacy, it's it does work. And it's not, we're not gonna get all of our goals overnight. We're not gonna get everything we want all at once. But everyone who's what I want people to really understand is if you're feeling like how I felt, which is like, I feel so helpless. This is so horrible, I'm overwhelmed with grief. I don't know what to do. I feel paralyzed. There actually are things that you can do, and even the smallest thing when we all do them, they add up to things. This all started with us just doing like one little thing, sending one message, posting one post, sending one DM, one email, one letter. Suddenly we have three kids out. And so I hope we get all of these kids out eventually. Um, so that's the little glimmer of hope that I am holding on to to get me through the day that um this isn't a hopeless cause, and we just absolutely cannot stop fighting for these children who can't fight for themselves.

SPEAKER_00

This is the perfect uh moral distress, moral injury type thing is uh that that sense of helplessness is the is the manifestation of that feeling of of moral distress. And it is by doing something that you can say, well, I'm not gonna be stuck in this helplessness. And I think for anybody who says, Oh, but I'm just one person. Yeah, we're you're just one person.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah. Exactly. I'm just one person. I'm just one mom who is sick to her stomach, crying in her office, saying, I I absolutely can't stand this at all. What do I do? I didn't know what to do. And I still am learning every day. Um, but every one of those little actions, it it does amount to a lot. We have accomplished a lot already. And we're just getting started. Um and I just really want people to know that and that it also just helps it helps me feel better. Like I said, the these children are helping me as much as we're trying to help them because staying busy and and committing to these actions is the only way that I can like cope and function because I otherwise just fell apart.

SPEAKER_00

And I the other thing I hear in your story is, I mean, you you and I both know like we're we're we're currently living in a country that despises care, that despises and and says that well, if you care about people, you're weak. If you cry, you're weak, you know, whatever. All of this nonsense that, and you know, and it's all being amplified in this manosphere. Whatever and in our the toxicity coming from within the government. And our care for other human beings is our greatest strength. And I think you know, your story of being like what was the nurse who who Jackie. Jackie. I mean Jackie.

SPEAKER_02

That moment. Jackie, literally, I mean, if you really want to pin it down to like what was the true like spark? It was Jackie. I was just sobbing. I was completely useless, sobbing in my office like a crazy person. I could not function. I didn't sleep the night before.

SPEAKER_00

And also, this is the normal reaction to being exposed to human suffering.

SPEAKER_02

Correct. Yes.

SPEAKER_00

As doctors, we suppressed that all the time.

SPEAKER_02

Oh yeah. And I suppressed it all through rounds. I did my rounds. I saw my patients. I talked to my families. And then I went to my office and I completely the floodgates opened. And Jackie was the same way. She was also in tears. She's also a mother. We were just both sick, and she was the one. And I will never forget that moment and those words that she said. We have to turn these feelings into action. And that was it.

SPEAKER_00

Jack was brilliant.

SPEAKER_02

Thank you so much, Jackie. I love her. I adore her. Amazing. We can all be Jackie, can all take these feelings. Really, everyone can take all these feelings about because it like, you know, this is all by design, this overwhelm of the news cycle of every day being something more unprecedented, more overwhelming, more horrific. The idea, I mean, this is by design to make everyone paralyzed, to make everyone try to dissociate and tune out and think, well, I can't do anything. I'm just one person. But we can all do small things. And whatever it is that your talent is or your passion is, you know, you can, you can do like small things that really do make a difference. And we all have to do that. And we all have to keep doing it because no one's coming to save us. We have to save ourselves in this. That's something I've realized. There's no, you know, you know, politician who's going to come from the heavens and make everything right again. Like it's not going to happen. It's just not going to happen. You know, it's not from anywhere. No one's coming from the heavens to descend upon us and fix everything. We have to fix everything. We have to do the work.

SPEAKER_00

I was, I was just thinking about that terrible AI. I know. Oh God. What hours? Gosh. I'm not being Jesus. I'm a doctor.

SPEAKER_02

What in the weird?

SPEAKER_00

We're in a weird timeline.

SPEAKER_02

This is like the weirdest timeline ever. Yes.

SPEAKER_00

Um, so I I think this is the the perfect transition is what are things that uh you know that our listeners can take away from this conversation? What are things that they can do? Actions for them to turn that helplessness into something better, something good.

SPEAKER_02

Yes. Thank you so much for that. So um if you guys want to follow our journey um and you want to help, you know, you can follow all of us on Instagram, um, Ask La Doctora, Anita K Patel MD, and Dr. Dot Ashmarie. And you will see that we all have linked in our bios um um the Chili website where you can click on that and we have a list of action items for different topics that you can um if you want to participate in. For example, we have our petition that you can sign that demands the closure of the daily detention facility that we um put together with Miss Rachel. We have over 200,000 signatures. And a lot of people say, like, oh, petitions don't really do much. But when they get to those numbers, like the type of numbers that we've garnered, like they they can, they can definitely go places. So um there's that petition. Um, calling your Congress members, that actually makes a huge difference. Um and it only takes a couple of minutes. If you don't know who your representatives are, you can go to congress.gov slash find your representative. You just type in your zip code and it'll tell you. And you can just call the main switchboard and call them. And we have um we also have a resist bot text. You can just send it.

SPEAKER_00

I love resist bot.

SPEAKER_02

One of my favorite because I'm like every what I'm just texting all the time. Like, you know, it's it's so easy. You tell you can text go es h to 50409, and that will automatically write a letter to your Congress members telling them to end child detention. Um, and then another thing that you can do is you can donate to each step home. This organization is the organization that we've been working very closely with. There is a fund specifically for the commissary accounts of the families who are currently detained so that while they're in detention, they can at least have basic things like clean water, hygiene products, snacks for their kids. One mom bought her son a chocolate bar from the money from each step home for his birthday because he had his third birthday in Dillay detention facility and she wanted to do something for him. So to make their experience there a little bit less hellish, you can donate to each step home. Um, and and we have an advocacy page, um, Anita K Patel MD.com slash advocacy, and all of those um action items are on there. So just to summarize, the chili link has all action items, pre-written emails. You just click, click, click, it takes super quick.

SPEAKER_00

I'm I'm looking at it now while we're talking, and it's like so organized, so easy to see.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, you just click on and you don't have to like download an app. You don't have to register. You can, but but it's totally optional. So for people who are like me who are like, oh my gosh, I don't want another app and another password. You don't have to do that. You can just go to the link and you can see you there's pre-written emails that you can send that say, for example, Vanguard, I want you to divest my entire my retirement from Core Civic. And those are the types of actions that, again, if multiple people do it, um, it has been successful in the past. There have been other companies that were people collectively demanded divestment. Um, these companies listen. So we have those action items, we have pre-written emails to different members of Congress for different issues. Um, so go to the Chili link, text go esh to 50409, um, follow our advocacy page, um, and just call, just just call. Call your reps and your Congress members every day. I just call them now regularly.

SPEAKER_00

You're just like speed dial.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, I'm just like just God on speed dial.

SPEAKER_00

Dr. Jones, thank you so much. I mean, not only for all of the incredible advocacy, the work that you've been doing and are continuing to do, but for that incredible list of things that people everywhere can do. That, you know, it's not each each one person can make a difference. And I think that's just something that I think many of us really need to hear on a regular basis because you're right, the overwhelm can be so intense. Um and so I think that that's probably the perfect time. I'm I'm hoping that you don't mind. When Argivon's here, every every week we do something called take two and call me in the morning, which is an excuse for us to be like, what has given us joy this week? Because we knew that every week we were going to need an excuse to find something good. In this hellscape. So I wonder what what are you doing these days that that brings you joy? Uh, what might you prescribe, for example, to to your fellow humans?

SPEAKER_02

My greatest joy is to go with my little boy. I have a two-year-old son, take him outside and go on a little nature walk and just turn my phone on, do not disturb, and check out from all of it, um, and get some fresh air and some sunlight and and just watch him explore and point out the bugs and the sticks and the grass and whatever he sees, and and just try to be present and and and and enjoy those little moments um with him. So I think that's really important. Essentially touch grass, right? Get some fresh air, some sunlight, touching grass. It's really important. It's really important. Just to tune out all the noise and and be present at least once a day. I think that's that's really helped keep me um somewhat sane.

SPEAKER_00

Toddlers for all of the for all of the shade that toddlers. They're so great, they're so fun. They get intermittently they're fun and they're you know really challenging, but they're but I feel like when you're like when you go out on a walk with a toddler, they don't care what's on your phone and also like look at this and look at what I'm doing. And it it doesn't matter how banal something might be to you, they are just fascinated.

SPEAKER_02

I know. It's I love it. I love like re-experiencing the world through his eyes where he's just like, look at this little ladybug.

SPEAKER_01

I'm like, you know what? That is fantastic. Look at her, look at her go. That is great. We should appreciate ladybugs. You're right.

SPEAKER_00

I love that. Um my my eldest kid insisted that we get scuba certified, which is uh, by the way, not something that I would have ever done for myself. Um so badass. I I mean, I'll do anything for my kids. And um, so they they wanted me to get scuba certified, so we've we've been able to do a bunch of diving together. And last week was uh spring break in our community, and we went to Catalina Island, and my eldest and I got to go scuba diving, and we saw this is like the underwater equivalent, like touch seagrass, I guess. Yeah, I love it. Touch. And I got to see, I mean, Catalina has incredible diving, and so there's a ton of really cool, weird fish we got to see, and it was very neat.

SPEAKER_01

Oh cool.

SPEAKER_00

And I could not believe it. The guide, um, this place, it's called Catalina Scuba for anybody who wants to go there. Uh, our guide was named Chris, him and his wife own this this business. They're fabulous. I will put a link in the show notes. Yes, and he took us on our second dive to see a giant sea bass. Oh my gosh. I guess they're just now starting to come back to uh Catalina area for their making babies and whatnot. Oh my gosh. Um they're ginormous.

SPEAKER_01

How big are they?

SPEAKER_02

I actually have no idea.

SPEAKER_00

We apparently get to be like 500 pounds. And when when he was talking to us between our dives, he was like, Oh, I don't know if we're gonna be able to find one, but like I it would be really cool if we did. So let's go look. And he's like, So if I tell you that something's really big, just please don't move really suddenly. We're just gonna like give it plenty of space and whatever. And I could not believe, like I knew it was gonna be big, but then when we found one, and it was like nestled in um a bunch of giant sea kelp that grows here in California. And it was just wild, and it was so cool and incredible. I I've been holding that moment in my heart, like what a special, I mean, such a luxury to be able to go do stuff like that with my family and to get to see these things in nature and like you don't have your phone when you're down there. Exactly. There are no, there's no news, there's no notifications. Yep.

SPEAKER_02

Just be present, being present in that moment, soaking it in. That sounds incredible. I love that. It was really cool. Wow.

SPEAKER_00

Um, well, I'm so so grateful to you for being on the show this week.

SPEAKER_02

Thank you so much for inviting me. This is such an honor to be with this attending that I looked up to as a trainee to be on your podcast. Um, I just feel like completely honored and thrilled. This is so so wonderful, and I'm so grateful.

SPEAKER_00

Thank you. Feeling as it is a mutual admiration society. All right. Well, listen, folks, that's it for this week's episode. Um, if you don't like what you heard, this has been some terrible podcast. But we know that you're listening to things on the manosphere. I know that our audience has great taste. And you, if you've made it this far, thanks for staying with us. Make sure to follow us on TikTok, Instagram, and YouTube. We're at the present illness for all of our TPI-related news. And we'll be back next week with more headlines, hot takes, and doom scrolling, hopefully wrapped up in some laughs. So until then, agitate, hydrate, and take a nap. And we'll see you next time on the present illness. Production by Argon Salas and Alyssa Bergart, editing by Alyssa Bergart, social media by Argivon Salas, original music by Joseph Upoff. Don't take medical advice from random people on a podcast. This show's for informational purposes. It's meant to be fun, and it's certainly not medical advice. Please take your medical questions to a qualified professional.

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Alyssa Burgart, MD, MA

Host
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Arghavan Salles, MD, PhD

Host