The Epstein of It All

Join Drs. Arghavan Salles and Alyssa Burgart as they don their sterile gloves to dissect the web of connections surrounding Mr. Pedophile Criminal, Jeffrey Epstein, in "The Epstein of It All." The doctors examine how powerful men shield each other from consequences - and compound harms to survivors.

Arghavan shares her social media deep dive into the recently released Epstein emails about Donald Trump, including those with journalist Michael Wolff and former Harvard Dean Larry Summers. These emails are so poorly written that listeners face the risk of losing brain cells. Alyssa rolls her eyes over how gross and foolish people have way too much power. Etsy sellers are already hawking T-shirts that say "I know how dirty Donald is.”

The episode's diagnostic workup includes a careful examination of how society treats allegations against powerful figures and the chronic condition of powerful men escaping accountability.

What’s bringing you Joy this week?

This week our physicians prescribe a healthy dose of Soraya Chemaly and her new book, All We Want is Everything, and Fumi Abe, whose nephew apparently knows too much about the American healthcare system (we're not asking questions).

Fact check: The guest who was going to visit Epstein and was worried about whether they might run into Trump wasn't a young woman or a woman at all--he was a former member of the Kuwaiti government.

Links:

• To read more about the latest trove on the Epstein emails on Arghavan’s Instagram carousel
• The Harvard Salient: The 20th Anniversary of Larry Summers’ Remarks and the Debut of Cancel Culture

Take two of this episode and call us in the morning.

Activation awareness: This episode contains discussions of SA and mentions of Jeffrey Epstein's alleged crimes. Listener discretion is advised.

Note: The literary reference people are mentioning regarding a “dog not barking” is from Sherlock Holmes, referring to a case in which the dog didn’t bark because the thief was someone the dog knew.

Thanks for listening to The Present Illness with Drs. Arghavan Salles and Alyssa Burgart!

Follow us on TikTok and Instagram @ThePresentIllness

Credits

• Production by Arghavan Salles and Alyssa Burgart
• Editing by Alyssa Burgart
• Theme Music by Joseph Uphoff
• Social Media by Arghavan Salles

Chapters

• 6:08 Revelations from the Emails
• 11:54 Epstein's Perspective on Trump
• 17:54 Larry Summers and the Elite's Complicity
• 21:54 The Impact of Me Too and Accountability
• 26:56 Final Thoughts on Epstein and Trump
• 33:04 Objectification and Ownership: The Language of Trafficking
• 40:21 Title IX and the Justice System: A Disservice to Survivors
• 48:32 Government Accountability: Pressuring for Justice
• 57:09 Finding Joy Amidst Darkness: A Palate Cleanser

Transcript

Arghavan Salles (00:00)
Hey there, fellow nerds, welcome back. We've got another great episode of The Present Illness today. This is the podcast where two physicians try to make sense of a world that's a little febrile and ⁓ very underdiagnosed. ⁓ I'm Arghavan Salles, a surgeon scientist in your friendly neighborhood, Doomscroller in residence.

Alyssa Burgart (00:17)
I'm Alyssa Burgart an anesthesiologist and bioethicist who tracks news and health law like they're EKGs full of spikes and surprises. The present illness is where we dig into public health, politics, culture, and ethics with a scalpel in one hand and a meme in the other.

Arghavan Salles (00:33)
Thanks again to everyone who's listening. We really appreciate the feedback that folks are sending us and if you enjoy this episode, we would love for you to also share feedback with us. Or even if you don't, we also want to hear critical feedback. Extra love to our subscribers and followers and a warm welcome to anyone who just stumbled in from ruining the workplace as a lady or a female or whatever term you would like to use to describe yourself.

Alyssa Burgart (00:55)
Let me tell you.

I'll tell you what, I have walked into the workplace multiple times this week and I just decimated it. It was great.

Arghavan Salles (01:08)
They appreciated it. It's such a service.

Alyssa Burgart (01:09)
I hope so. ⁓

Listen folks, we are glad you're here. Let's get into it.

Arghavan Salles (01:18)
So we are recording this episode on November 13th. And one of the things you and I have been wanting to talk about and haven't yet addressed is the Epstein of it all. Given that there were 20,000 some odd emails that were released yesterday, I think today's as good a time as any to discuss that little situation, if you will. So I thought I might just start by, go ahead.

Alyssa Burgart (01:23)
Mm.

Ugh.

Well,

and maybe what we should do, and I think we've maybe been remiss in previous episodes, obviously for anybody who is concerned about listening to topics related to Epstein, I understand how it can be really difficult to get away from this. And especially if you're a survivor or if you're impacted by ⁓ someone's experience as a survivor, this episode may not be for you and that's okay. We want you to take care of yourself. We wanna make sure that you do what you need to do.

Arghavan Salles (02:12)
Yeah, absolutely. Thank you for that reminder. Because this is everywhere right now. And yeah, I fully appreciate how hard that is for folks who don't like hearing about this topic for very good reason. So what I thought I might do is start by just summarizing at least some of the things that we know so far about what came out.

Alyssa Burgart (02:18)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Arghavan Salles (02:39)
this week and then I think there will be many offshoots out of all of these things. The first three emails, so a lot of people have focused on the first three emails that were released and these included an email from 2011 when Jeffrey Epstein sent an email to Ghislaine Maxwell. In that email, he said that he wants her to know that the dog that hasn't barked is Trump and

Also that Trump had spent apparently hours at his house with, the name is redacted, but it is everyone's belief that that person is Virginia Joufray. So what people are taking, and then she writes back, I had noticed that, or I've been thinking about that is what she says.

Alyssa Burgart (03:26)
In Virginia

Dufres, we mentioned before, recently posthumously published ⁓ a memoir about her experiences and in relation to that story coming out to even greater attention as part of how, for example, Prince Andrew lost his, like the royal family removed his fancy titles and whatnot.

Arghavan Salles (03:50)
Exactly, yeah, and she, her book came out, I think it's two weeks ago now, that was published posthumously. I just want to, in case people want the actual wording, I did pull up that email, that one that I was just talking about. Jeffrey Epstein says to Ghislaine Maxwell, I want you to realize that that dog hasn't, sorry, start over. I want you to realize that that dog that hasn't barked is Trump.

and then they have the name redacted and it says victim, spent hours at my house with him. He has never been mentioned, police chief, et cetera, I'm 75 % there and she writes back, Ghislaine writes back. I've been thinking about that. So that was the first of the three emails that was released and what people, people have taken away a lot of different things ⁓ from this one. One is a lot of folks have been talking about the fact that there was a young girl who,

spent hours in Epstein's house with Trump and what does that mean and what might have occurred there. It is important to note that Virginia Jouffre does not talk about him in her book and has not ever accused him of any wrongdoing. So if indeed it is her who's referenced, it doesn't sound like anything inappropriate happened in that specific instance. The other part of that email, which is that that dog that hasn't barked

is Trump. Some people have interpreted this as meaning that Trump hasn't like outed Epstein, but others are suggesting that it's because they think it's a perhaps a literary reference, which seems like a stretch for this audience. But but ⁓

Alyssa Burgart (05:29)
I'm sorry, based on based on

the lack of punctuation in pretty much every single one of these emails, I think we can rule out literary references, but I'm open to hearing alternative points of view.

Arghavan Salles (05:39)
Yeah, that's a fair point. The suggestion that has been made is that he's referencing that perhaps Trump is actually an informant. And that's why Trump hasn't been saying anything because he's already said the things to the police. So that's a suggestion. Of course, it's a suggestion that others have made that Trump was an informant. ⁓ Of course, we don't know. But that's probably like the key points about that first email.

Alyssa Burgart (05:48)
Mm.

Arghavan Salles (06:07)
Then the second of the first three emails is an email between Epstein and Michael Wolff. So Michael Wolff was a journalist and if people who've been following the Epstein story, you've seen Michael Wolff everywhere. He is constantly talking about conversations he had with Epstein and what he knew about Trump and a lot of things.

And what has been, I think, surprising to some people is that, is his communications to, with Epstein that have been revealed in these emails. So one ⁓ is an email in which Epstein says to Wolf that Trump obviously knew about the girls as he asked Ghislaine to stop. And this is important because Trump has denied that he knew anything.

about Epstein's criminal activities, which involve trafficking girls and young women. But according to that email, and you know, it's coming from Epstein, so take it for what it's worth, but according to Epstein, he says that Trump knew.

Did you want to say something?

Alyssa Burgart (07:28)
No, I'm going to keep listening.

Arghavan Salles (07:30)
Okay, then the third email are actually like, let me see if I can just tell you the exact wording,

So the second email, basically it's very short. And again, this is from Epstein to Michael Wolfe. There's something that's redacted. And then you see Mar-a-Lago, more text that's redacted. And then it says, Trump said he asked me to resign, never a member ever. I think he's talking about membership at Mar-a-Lago.

And then he says, course he knew about the girls as he asked Ghislaine to stop. So that's the exact wording there.

Alyssa Burgart (08:03)
To

stop what?

Arghavan Salles (08:06)
trafficking girls. I mean, there was, what we learned a few months back is that everyone knows that Trump and Epstein had been friends at some point, right? There's lots of video and photos of them together at parties and so on. There's that famous note that Trump wrote that was in Epstein's 50th birthday book, referencing their friendship and talking about keeping secrets and all of that.

Some believe that the fallout in their relationship related to a real estate deal where they were bidding on the same property. However, with regard to this whole kicking Epstein out of Mar-a-Lago type thing, you see in this email that, which by the way, people bring up as evidence that Trump was not part of this criminal activity or unaware of this criminal activity, people will say, Trump cut his ties with Epstein. Now,

Again, it could be because of that real estate deal. came out over the summer was that Trump referenced Epstein's trafficking of some young girls as stealing them from him at Mar-a-Lago. And again, he specifically mentioned, well, somebody asked him about Virginia Jouffre and he said, yes, Epstein stole her as though these young girls were property owned.

Alyssa Burgart (09:16)
Mm-hmm.

property.

Arghavan Salles (09:31)
by these men. And so it's unclear is what I'm trying to say exactly what the riff was. Was it the real estate thing? Was it Trump saying, hey, stop trafficking girls from my girls? Just to be clear, underage children from my club. But clearly there was some sort of riff that developed. And so the third email that was in this initial three that were released is also between Michael Wolff and Jeffrey Epstein and Michael Wolff

says to Epstein, I have CNN planning to ask Trump tonight, or sorry, I hear CNN planning to ask Trump tonight about his relationship with you, either on air or in Scrum afterwards. Epstein says, if we were able to craft an answer for him, what do you think it should be? So just to be clear, this.

Alyssa Burgart (10:18)
I read that one and I was like, that's a lot of that's, it was weird. Like as a journalist, like reading all that stuff, I was like, I mean, I'm not a journalist. I'm not, saying for a journalist to give the sort of direction that's in this email, I guess you're gonna, you're gonna read it. was like, what?

Arghavan Salles (10:35)
Well, the reason I pause there is to say, okay, why is a journalist giving a heads up to a criminal that there's going to be a question potentially about him? And then why is that criminal writing back, if we were able to craft an answer to him, what do you think it should be? And then Michael Wolfe, I think this is what you're referring to, writes back with a fairly lengthy response. I think you should let him hang himself.

If he says he hasn't been on the plane or to the house, then that gives you a valuable PR and political currency. You can hang him in a way that potentially generates a positive benefit for you, Mr. Pedophile Criminal. Obviously that last part was not in the email. Then he goes on, or if it really looks like he could win, you could save him, generating a debt.

Of course it is possible that when asked he'll say Jeffrey is a great guy and he has gotten a raw deal and he is a victim of political correctness, which is to be outlawed in a Trump regime. So this is a journalist to your point giving advice to a criminal. This is in 2015. Folks might recall that Epstein was originally convicted, I think it was 2009, it was 2008 or 2009. So this is years after that.

And Michael Wolff is giving him advice on how to take advantage of this situation. Now, Michael Wolff is not the only reporter who is in the emails that were released yesterday. There's also a man named ⁓ Landon Thomas, who at the time was a New York Times reporter. And he has some very interesting exchanges as well with Trump. ⁓ In some cases relating to what reads

to me as Landon Thomas's concern about Trump's impending election and a desire for Epstein to release some ⁓ information that might be harmful to Trump's campaign. But in these exchanges, some of the interesting things that Epstein says are, I mean, I was surprised by this. Maybe other people wouldn't be surprised by this, but I was surprised at how negatively

Epstein talked about Trump. Again, these were friends. At some point, I think Epstein said something like it was Trump was his best friend or something like that. But in one email, he says, this one actually is not clear who it's sent to, but he says, your world, Epstein says, your world does not understand how dumb he really is, meaning Trump. He will blame everyone around him for bad results.

He's got in a couple other places, Epstein says, this is to Larry Summers. He says, recall I've told you I have met some very bad people, none as bad as Trump, not one decent cell in his body. So yes, dangerous.

Alyssa Burgart (13:43)
I mean truly when Jeffrey Epstein thinks you're a bad person that really says something.

Arghavan Salles (13:51)
Yeah, I don't think it says anything good, you know? The other email that he, along those lines that he has sent to Landon Thomas, the New York Times, the at the time New York Times reporter was about Trump. says, feels alone and is nuts. I told everyone from day one, evil beyond belief, mad, and most thought I was speaking metaphorically. It's obvious he could crack Stormy Daniels question, like question mark.

Alyssa Burgart (13:53)
No!

Arghavan Salles (14:20)
lies after lies after lies. So not only did they kind of just separate their social circles, it sounds like there was great animosity between the two. And I think what has stood out to me and the reason I wanted to talk about those segments specifically is, Jeffrey Epstein was a terrible person. Obviously, I don't know that anyone who would with that statement. And he thinks Donald Trump is absolutely...

horrible. So like, what are we doing here?

Alyssa Burgart (14:52)
Well,

the other thing that's, I think, interesting is when you look at sort of the cult of Donald Trump and people who really revere him, ⁓ and yet there's such a huge overlap in the MAGA community and whatever who are like very release the Epstein files, release the Epstein files.

And I, I'm very curious to see as this information emerges, one, what is, what cohesive story is going to come out about it and will, presumably there will be information that will shed immense light on not only Donald Trump, but many, many people, I, I would assume across both parties and all sorts of people who are rich and powerful and have done whatever the hell they wanted.

Arghavan Salles (15:36)
It wasn't.

Mm-hmm.

Alyssa Burgart (15:48)
I'm very curious to see if, based on what comes out about Trump, if it is going to pierce this sort of cultish veneer. I'm very curious. I'm not confident.

Arghavan Salles (16:01)
Yeah, well that's an interesting point too because I saw a lot of people, again I'm the doom scroller here, and so I saw a lot of people when I was scrolling yesterday ⁓ almost like rejoicing that this was the beginning of the end, that ⁓ you know it's all over, you know all these kinds of things. Now of course some of that is intentionally inflammatory to get likes and engagement and whatever, you know I'm sure some of that is engagement farming, but it did seem like a lot of people

felt like this changed something. And I'll be honest that, you we've talked about this at least privately and I think once maybe on the pot that I don't think so. Like I would be, I would be delighted. I would be delighted. Let me be clear. If people started to care that this man is a sexually abusive person, I would be delighted for people to care about that. And they have not shown any interest in that issue.

when it comes to this man before, I don't expect that they're going to now. Like, honestly, there's nothing too surprising in these emails. What I found most surprising was one, how much Jeffrey Epstein seemed to dislike Trump, and two, how poorly written so many of the emails are, including the emails from Larry Summers, the former president of Harvard. Like, one of the most elite institutions in the entire world, and this man...

it cannot seem to write coherent emails, at least not consistently. And keep in mind, for folks who don't know Larry Summers, in 2005, while he was president of Harvard, he attended a conference that was specifically about women and minorities in science, okay? At that conference, he gave some suggestions as to why women are underrepresented in science. And one of his three suggestions was that we just have less innate ability.

for science. And that led to a lot of pushback, understandably, reasonably so. He ended up having to step down from his position as the president of Harvard University. And he, don't worry, he's doing fine. He's still got an endowed professorship at Harvard University. Poor guy, suffering. He was canceled so hard. ⁓ He was also the director of the National Economic Council. He's an economist.

after having stepped down from his position as president at Harvard. And to share what he wrote in at least one of his emails ⁓ to Jeffrey Epstein because it is surprising ⁓ that this is how this person would talk

Alyssa Burgart (18:42)
my God. speaking of Larry Summers, I just saw that there's a piece that came out earlier this year that's called the 20th anniversary of Larry Summers remarks and the debut of cancel culture. again, like seriously, you don't have a right to be the Dean of a university. Like calm down, get, get just, you're fine.

Arghavan Salles (19:08)
Okay, So this is one of the emails that Larry Summers sent to Jeffrey Epstein. This is in 2017, which is relevant. It's a full 12 years after he made those absurd comments at that conference at Harvard. I'm just reading the email verbatim, okay? "Softbank deputy guy I liked and seemed aware and honest re son. Lots of slathering to Saudis. I yipped about inclusion.

I observed that half the IQ in world was possessed by women without mentioning they are more than 51 % of population. dot, dot. Mnuchin plums new depths. War seems more likely than I used to think. DJT is world's luckiest guy in terms of opposition, economy, et cetera. Still think his world will collapse. I'm trying to figure why American elite think if you murder your baby by beating and abandonment, it must be irrelevant to your admission to Harvard.

but hit a few women 10 years ago and you can't work at a network or think tank, all caps, do not repeat this insight sent from my iPad." So.

Alyssa Burgart (20:19)
I mean, to be fair though, calling that an insight feels like a stretch.

Arghavan Salles (20:24)
Yeah, wasn't even sure, I wasn't sure which insight he was referring to. which part of this, yeah, which part of this email was an insight. I am not sure, but I do wanna just lift up or push down whatever the right terminology is, but I wanna comment on two specific parts of this email. So one is the statement about, I observed that half the IQ in world was possessed by women without mentioning they are more than 51 % of the population.

Alyssa Burgart (20:30)
I didn't hear one. Wow.

Arghavan Salles (20:53)
That's clearly an insult, right? He's saying, like, if you divide up half the intelligence over more than half the population, then women are lower on average intelligence than men. That's what he was trying to say, but he credit, it seems like, for not making that explicit in whatever comments. I don't even know what comments he observed to who, in what context. I don't know. Without mentioning, again, mentioning to who, I don't know. But he seemed to want credit.

for not being explicit about his insult of women's intelligence, even though this is a man who basically denied that he had ever said anything harmful about women. And actually people supported him in 2005, including women, were like, oh no, his comments were more nuanced. Okay, but here he is 12 years later, basically saying the same thing. Women are stupider than men. That's what he's saying. And he wants credit for.

Alyssa Burgart (21:48)
It turns out

just because you work at Harvard, it doesn't mean you get smarter over time.

Arghavan Salles (21:54)
And it doesn't mean that you have any ability to reflect on your own errors in judgment and in cognition and everything. The other point is right at that last part, right before his Do Not Repeat This Insight, where he's talking about basically cancel culture. You can't hit on women tenure. If you hit on women 10 years ago, now you can't get a job at a network or a think tank. That's what he's referring to.

Alyssa Burgart (22:18)
Also, ⁓ no one has a right to a job at a network or a think tank. You're not, like, it's actually not, you don't, you don't like deserve it. That's not, that's not really how this works. Yeah.

Arghavan Salles (22:31)
was owed

to you if you were like a man.

I don't know.

So anyway, ⁓

Alyssa Burgart (22:42)
I can see how this gentleman might think that.

Arghavan Salles (22:46)
Exactly right. That is, I mean, that's what I take from that, right? Like that he feels that he was owed opportunities or that men in general are owed opportunities that should not be denied because they quote unquote hit on women 10 years ago. ⁓ And I want to share something Jillian Brandstetter posted on Blue Sky. She said, my takeaway from every new Epstein revelation is that some powerful people victimized many powerless young women, many more new, some actively enabled it.

And we're still being told that Me Too and accountability for sexual violence have gone too far.

Alyssa Burgart (23:20)
mean. It's embarrassing that people make that argument. It's embarrassing. I am embarrassed to be part of this society. ⁓

Truly, the idea that somehow folks who rape teenagers should be beyond reproach. don't... Yeah, no, me too. The lady's ruining the workplace. ⁓

Arghavan Salles (23:51)
Yeah, because we have definitely ruined the workplace ⁓ to the extent that that has involved asking to be treated like human beings in the workplace. ⁓ But what he...

Alyssa Burgart (24:03)
or anywhere.

Treating, treated like a human being anywhere. Anywhere. Because let me tell you, the people who are raping children...

Arghavan Salles (24:08)
Just asking, it's asking too much, Alissa.

Alyssa Burgart (24:16)
for their own sick pleasure are also, I do not expect them to respect people of any age anywhere.

Arghavan Salles (24:25)
Yeah, no, that's right. Well, one transgression means you don't really, a transgression like that means you don't really believe in rules and laws and decency. And so you're gonna transgress in, typically people who do that will transgress in numerous other ways. But I think that this idea, I mean, you and I both know because we work in this space, but this idea that accusations from women ruin men's careers really holds no water. I mean, even if you just look at,

Alyssa Burgart (24:52)
I wish

it would ruin their careers, please ruin their careers.

Arghavan Salles (24:56)
We have been begging

for any abusive man's career to be ruined and it's not happening. It is not happening. We have in the White House, right, a man who was found by a jury to have sexually assaulted E. Jean Carroll. And he is not only president, he is asking the Supreme Court to weigh in on that decision so that he doesn't have to pay her.

Alyssa Burgart (25:01)
Any accountability. Any.

Arghavan Salles (25:25)
the money that a jury said that he owed her for defamation. I mean, if you want any more evidence, like what more evidence do you want that me too accusations don't bring down careers? The man is in the highest office in the land.

Alyssa Burgart (25:38)
I mean,

but also we should take a moment. mean, E. Jean Carroll. Hon, if you're listening, you're a hero. You're a hero.

Arghavan Salles (25:48)
Absolutely.

She's a queen.

Alyssa Burgart (25:52)
You

Arghavan Salles (25:53)
I mean, she had to wait a long time to get her justice, but now she's like, she's reveling in it as she should. I mean, she was immensely harmed by this man and she did an extremely brave thing by coming forward. And yes, she was awarded some amount of money. But again, look, her abuser is in the White House. Like this is not, if this is what, I don't understand how anyone.

Alyssa Burgart (26:03)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

If

any person in America has the right to say, not my president, it's E. Jean Carroll.

Arghavan Salles (26:26)
That's right. That's right. And I just think it's hard for me to believe anyone making a case for me too having gone too far when this is the reality that we live in. So getting back to the emails, just, know, like I'm a completionist, so like there are more things I wanna share. One other person ⁓ who had some interesting comments about

Alyssa Burgart (26:43)
Okay, back to the emails.

Arghavan Salles (26:55)
sorry about Trump that was in there, is a woman named Kathy Rumler ⁓ and she was the White House counsel under Barack Obama and for reasons unknown to me, she is communicating with Epstein via email. So she writes to ⁓ Epstein that Trump is gross. Epstein says ⁓ he's worse in real life and up close. ⁓ And in a separate email, Epstein says, I know how dirty Donald is.

So just again, reinforcing this idea.

Alyssa Burgart (27:27)
The t-shirts make themselves.

I'm going to go try. bet you that if I go to Etsy right now, I bet you I can find. I bet somebody's already on that market.

Arghavan Salles (27:32)
It's true. ⁓

Yeah, I'm sure people are so fast at coming up with these shirts for things like this. The other thing I wanted to just summarize for folks is what seemed to be the most kind of incriminating pieces of information aside from what I've already shared. There was an email from some woman to Epstein in an exchange about when she was supposed to come over to his house. And you're laughing, why are we laughing?

Alyssa Burgart (28:09)
Sorry, I'm laughing because I literally just went to Etsy and there is literally that quote. I know how dirty Donald is. For $10.43, you too can have a t-shirt that says that. It's on sale right now. I just, I couldn't, I'm sorry, I couldn't help but look. I found the t-shirt, people on Etsy, great job.

Arghavan Salles (28:32)
That's amazing. Thank you for sharing that update. Okay, so what I was saying was in terms of information that supports this assertion that Donald is dirty, ⁓ one of the series of emails was an exchange from a young, presumably young, I don't know her age, but a woman to Epstein making arrangements for her to come visit his house.

Alyssa Burgart (28:37)
I'm sorry.

Arghavan Salles (28:54)
⁓ And she's asking about what time she should get there and she says, I don't want to come early to find Trump in your house. And I just want to point out that that was in 2017 when Trump was the president of the United States. So there was.

Alyssa Burgart (29:09)
I

just threw up a little bit in my mouth though.

Arghavan Salles (29:12)
Very appropriate. Yeah. And.

Alyssa Burgart (29:15)
Vomit

emoji.

Arghavan Salles (29:17)
Do you know that that will get you a community guideline violation on TikTok? Don't use that emoji, but anyway, ask me how I know. But you can say all sorts of bigoted things and those are fine, but vomit emoji, don't do. Anyway, this was just after, this was December of 2017 and in November of 2017, Trump and Epstein had Thanksgiving together. Again, while Trump was the president.

Alyssa Burgart (29:23)
Really? Huh.

Arghavan Salles (29:46)
There was an email that Epstein

Alyssa Burgart (29:50)
Maybe they were

maybe they were trying to patch up their relationship.

Arghavan Salles (29:54)
Yeah, just become besties again. Why not? They miss each other. So there's an email that Epstein had sent to that New York Times reporter, Landon Thomas, where what my impression of the email changes, Landon is asking, you know, is there any dirt essentially on Trump? And Epstein says that to ask his house man, he refers to this person as a house man. I don't know who that is.

⁓

Alyssa Burgart (30:25)
Is that like

a pool boy, like a grownup pool boy? you become a house man? Is that when a pool boy becomes a man.

Arghavan Salles (30:28)
House man.

be that must be what it is. He says, he says, have them ask my house man about Donald almost walking through the door leaving his nose print on the glass as young women were swimming in the pool and he was so focused he walked straight into the door. Now you could say that's just creepy. It's not evidence of crime, but it is very, very creepy.

Yeah, it was another email exchange between Epstein and Landon Thomas where Landon says, now everyone coming to me thinking I've juiced the info on you and Trump because of this, was then this was a quote from Trump about Epstein. But the response from Epstein is, "would you like photos of Donald and girls in bikinis in my kitchen?"

pretty gross. And then Landon Thomas writes back to give Landon Thomas some credit. He writes back, am serious man for the good of the nation. Why not try to get some of this out there? This is in December 2015. And Epstein replies with a link and then says, my 20 year old girlfriend in 93 that after two years I gave to Donald. Right, again, mm-hmm.

Alyssa Burgart (31:46)
Ugh. Ugh.

Arghavan Salles (31:50)
Yeah, yeah, very much giving the ick. ⁓ So again, this language of like gave and stole, right, fits very, it's very in line with the trafficking that Epstein engaged in where these girls and women were property. So he had this quote unquote girlfriend as how he refers to her. Then he gave her, gifted her to Donald.

Alyssa Burgart (31:53)
⁓ gross.

Arghavan Salles (32:19)
And I think those are, yes, I just checked my list. Those are all the highlights from yesterday's emails that I wanted to really make sure that we talked about. I do wanna, since we were talking about this ownership and idea owning these girls, I do wanna mention that in the birthday book that we briefly talked about earlier, Epstein's 50th birthday book, where there was that note from Trump about...

enigmas that never age and where he says may every day be another ⁓ secret anyway another wonderful secret is what he says ⁓

Alyssa Burgart (32:57)
Again,

so literary.

Sorry.

Arghavan Salles (33:04)
It's worth noting that Trump and others have denied that he wrote that letter. Make of that what you will. But I would also point out that Trump has lied about many, many things. Make of that what you will. But back to the birthday book. So there was another page in the birthday book where there's a photo of a, you know how like on the game shows when we were kids, they would have like a big check that people would get as like a prize, know, it'd be like, oh, you're.

Alyssa Burgart (33:30)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Arghavan Salles (33:31)
we're gifting you $100,000, but they'd give them like a giant check to hold up like it's a nice PR opportunity. Okay, so there's a photo of some people holding up this giant check and the text underneath it says that Epstein had sold a quote unquote fully depreciated, and then the name is redacted, to Donald Trump for $22,500. A fully depreciated woman in this context would be a woman who has,

exceeded the age at which she was optimally attractive, right? So you can infer based on the fact that this is Epstein, we're talking about that it was a girl who had become 18 or 20 or, you know, who knows what age. And I'm sure that they would say this is all a joke, but who jokes about selling a young person to another person and who jokes about...

depreciation of women as though we are objects. So depreciation for folks who don't know is like an accounting term. When you buy a device, when you buy a car, when you buy a printer, each year it depreciates in value by some amount. And you could account for that in your books when you're looking at your assets and your revenues and so on. So this objectification of women happened in numerous different ways in this spirit, in the circle.

There are who knows how many other people to your earlier point implicated in all of this. ⁓ I don't know again, there were 20,000 emails released yesterday. I certainly have not read all of them. But what.

Alyssa Burgart (35:08)
My and I

just my sorry, sorry, go ahead.

Arghavan Salles (35:11)
Well, was just going say, what we do see and have seen for years now in all the information that's come out about Epstein and his criminal activities is that a lot of very high powered men were involved with him, interacted with him, part of his social circle. ⁓ Larry Summers, who I mentioned, again, the former president of Harvard, was emailing with Epstein as late as March 2019.

So well after even more really incriminating information, I mean, even, you know, I don't remember the exact date of his conviction, but like this was only months before his death that they were still exchanging emails. And it just goes to show how these folks who are in power,

have a very small world. And we have journalists at places like the New York Times. We have the president of the United States, right? And we have the guy who was the former president of Harvard. have, you know, again, very high powered people all interacting with someone who carried out one of the largest, if not the largest, pedophilia trafficking schemes ever.

and it was referred to kind of as an open secret. I don't know, I'm not putting thoughts on anybody's I don't know exactly what any of these people did or didn't know, but it seems unlikely that you could have close contact with this man for a sustained period of time and not have any idea that there were these horrible, illegal, extraordinarily harmful activities going on.

Alyssa Burgart (37:01)
tell you my what I keep thinking about as you're, you know, reading these emails, and especially that that depreciation one, ⁓ you know, just thinking of the survivors who again, like this story, they've obviously been advocating to try to get this information out. But it's really been, I mean, I wish it was surprising, it's not surprising, but that the survivors voices in so many of these stories are just entirely absent. ⁓

We really hardly have heard, you know, the dominating things in the headlines really have to do with ⁓ Epstein and Trump, and I understand that. But fundamentally, you know, and the obsession in the, the Manosphere, in the Magosphere about Epstein seems to really be focused on, we're going to get that guy, as opposed to we genuinely care and want to prevent harm to children.

and to women. And I think that in so much of what you and I have talked about in recent episodes in terms of attitudes like Joel Webbins, attitudes that are ⁓ very anti-women being in the workplace, anti-women being outside of the home, ⁓ these are all interconnected ideas. And so when...

we don't care about survivors and we do not center the needs and goals of survivors, I think that we just make the same mistakes over and over.

Arghavan Salles (38:36)
Yeah, but centering survivors would require so many things that are not currently happening in our society. It would require believing people who have been harmed when they are brave enough, courageous enough to come forward.

it would require holding abusers accountable, which we have just not committed to doing as a society. And it can be at any level. can think back to, you know, I was thinking back to the origin of Time's Up and the 700,000 farm workers who had written in support of the women in Hollywood. And we're not supporting them either. We're not supporting people at any level who are experiencing harm at the hands of abusive people.

it is extraordinarily difficult to get justice. Part of what was so upsetting to me about that Women in the Workplace, the Women Ruining the Workplace podcast that the New York Times put out last week was ⁓ one of the conservative women on there, a woman named Helen Andrews,

Alyssa Burgart (39:39)
god,

the great feminization. Gosh, she sounds like a nutbag.

Arghavan Salles (39:43)
⁓ yes, that's a good adjective, I think, for her. What was really, I mean, there was much that she said that was very frustrating to me, but one of the things that really got my goat, if you will, is that she multiple times referenced Title IX as being like some sort of institution that overwhelmingly serves survivors and at the cost of the people who have harmed them.

Alyssa Burgart (40:11)
Ugh, wish, I wish. My God, that would be amazing. I wish that Title IX was doing that.

Arghavan Salles (40:21)
I think that the reason I wanted to mention that here is one, it's obviously quite relevant to our conversation, but also you and I both are well aware because of the class that we teach together on campus sexual assault, how much of a disservice Title IX often is to survivors. And so this woman was not only claiming that Title IX basically is unfair to the ⁓ accused abusers,

but also that our entire justice system is becoming like Title IX because of women, that's part of how we're ruining the workplace. Yes, exactly, the look on your face. For our listeners, she's perplexed. Yeah, because it makes no sense because that's not how Title IX works, that's not how our legal system works. I mean, you could ask anyone, including Amber Heard, and you would see that that's not how it plays out. And so for her to sit there and suggest,

much as Larry Summers did, that essentially Me Too has gone too far, ⁓ to me just shows how ignorant she is about everything in that space. She clearly does not know anything about Title IX or sexual violence.

Alyssa Burgart (41:29)
I she hates, but

if you hate women, then none of this matters. And she clearly hates women. mean, isn't she the one in the interview where like, ⁓ the guy that was in it kept being like, is there anything about women that's likable? And she like basically couldn't answer. She was like, well, not really.

Arghavan Salles (41:49)
No, that's correct. Well, actually it was Leah Sargent. It's hard to tell. So Leah Sargent was the other conservative woman who was on there. And she asked Helen, Helen, you've talked a lot about feminine vices. Are there any feminine virtues?

Alyssa Burgart (41:51)
like herself.

that's right, feminine virtues. Ugh.

Arghavan Salles (42:10)
Right. Which at some point, by the way, this article or the way that it was written on the website, which was the transcript of the podcast, started out as, did women ruin the workplace? Then it was, did feminist, well, did liberal feminism ruin the workplace? Then it became, did feminine vices ruin the workplace?

Alyssa Burgart (42:26)
Guys,

the people who've ruined the workplace are toxic, abusive people who treat other people like shit. That is what ruins the workplace. I mean, come on. Are you fucking kidding me?

Arghavan Salles (42:39)
No, it's

the women demanding respect, Alyssa. It's the women demanding equal pay.

Alyssa Burgart (42:44)
Well, you

can't say anything around here anymore.

Arghavan Salles (42:46)
Yeah,

can't even be a man anymore. They don't even allow Y chromosomes in through the door. Anyway, so in that part of the conversation that you're thinking of, Leah had asked Helen about what she views as feminine virtues because she says, in your piece, you wrote a lot about feminine vices, but are there any feminine virtues? And Ross doubt that is the one who has to answer that question because Helen essentially refuses to do so. And Ross says, well, I think she's talking about like,

know, carrying and nurturing, mean, whatever, you know, the stereotypical things that women are supposed to be good at, but we're mainly good at because we're socialized to be good at them. And then Leah goes back again to Helen and says, but Helen, do you have anything to say here? And she's basically like, well, Ross said it.

So yeah, that was very embarrassing. And I will say that I had a video I'd posted about this and multiple people were like, but isn't she working? And I do wanna clarify that I think, I don't know Helen, we're not like friends.

Alyssa Burgart (43:31)
so embarrassing.

I mean,

this is the thing, right? This is the thing about, you know, these conservative women voices who spend all of their time criticizing women being part of society and women being part of the workplace because literally, I mean, it's a catch-22. The only reason that they are able to make such sort of arguments is because they had access to education. They're able to get a bank account. They're able to publish things in and get interviews in public media spaces.

that this does not, your opportunities as a conservative woman do not exist without feminism. They do not exist.

Arghavan Salles (44:25)
yes but that's not the problem alissa see the problem is there's just too many women there's too many women taking advantage of feminism so i think that's what helen would argue were i to try to channel her based on having read her essay the great feminization and then listening to or having read the transfer with the pack has it was yeah not an essay i recommend ⁓ but she i think she would argue that the issue is not any one woman like she has a right

Alyssa Burgart (44:30)
Educate me. Educate me.

I read it, was gross.

Arghavan Salles (44:54)
to be a writer and be in the public sphere as one woman. The problem comes when you have too many women, right? That's how I interpret her take on the great feminization, that when you have too many women in a workplace, then we ruin it for everyone. And then what I also really liked about that, if there's anything I liked, I would say about that conversation was the section where they're talking about veterinary medicine. Because I think Leah is the one who brings up the example of like, well, most veterinarians are women.

So what about that, Helen? And Helen's like, yeah, I don't know. It hasn't fully collapsed as a profession. And you're like, yeah, because women don't actually ruin the workplace. She did try to make an argument that ⁓ the private equity buyout of many veterinary medicine practices is because there's so many women in veterinary medicine, because women don't wanna own our own practices. This is an actual argument that she made.

but then look at like urgent cares or look at ⁓ hospitals that are also being bought out by private equity that women have not historically owned and I do not think own in great numbers. And then maybe your real problem that you're identifying is private equity taking over everything and making everything worse. Not actually that women who went to school for many years and are underpaid as veterinarians are the actual problem. But she, did like that she had to admit.

that veterinary medicine had not collapsed despite the fact that there are a lot of women in that profession.

She didn't have an explanation really.

Alyssa Burgart (46:28)
I mean, but this is the thing that's so hilarious to me is like the abject lack of any sort of reflexive logic to be like, but is it that there's too many men?

I mean, it's so funny to me, right? And I'm not arguing that there's too many men in the workplace. I'm just saying it's so hilarious to me that somebody with a straight face is like, well, there's too many ladies. And that's the problem. That's, you know, it's it's ruining everything where it's like, but but what if there were what if there weren't enough? What if that's the problem? Maybe that's why workplaces, you know, we really just need more ladies or more trans people. We need more people who we just is more diversity. Maybe it turns out that's actually better. I don't know. Maybe it's that.

Arghavan Salles (46:56)
Mm.

No, you

don't say.

Alyssa Burgart (47:08)
It's only ruined.

Maybe it's only that it's ruined the workplace for people who've had abject access to power and didn't have to think about anything that they said or did outside of the home. Maybe that's actually the problem. I don't know. I'm just spit balling here. Maybe I should write an essay about it.

Arghavan Salles (47:19)
Mm hmm. hmm. Just yeah, just step on.

would read it.

⁓ Anyway, so yeah, so that was, I mean, there's a lot we could spend a whole episode talking about that podcast, but it does relate very closely to some of the things that are present in these emails that we talked about and the problem that exists, which is why people don't believe women and why it's been so hard for the Epstein survivors, like all survivors, to get any semblance of justice. mean, I think our government should be thoroughly ashamed that they had to hold their own press conference on the steps of the Capitol.

to say, hey, ⁓ it's been 20 years and we've been waiting for justice here and we want these files released. We want the names out there and if you do not release them, we will. I mean, how thoroughly embarrassing that our government has let these women down so terribly that they wanted to or they felt that they needed to have a public press conference to put some pressure on our legislators to do the right thing. And I should note before we close out this conversation that

Last time we talked about Adelita Grijalva having not been sworn in, she was sworn in. And yesterday, the day before our conversation, they did have a vote on that discharge petition and they did have 218 votes to move forward. Despite the fact, mind you, that Donald Trump was pressuring the Republicans who were voting for that discharge petition, including having a private meeting with Lauren Boeber yesterday, again, to try to pressure her into changing her vote.

Alyssa Burgart (48:35)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Arghavan Salles (49:02)
and say what you will about any of those people, but they held fast to their principles on this vote. So we got the 218 votes and there will apparently be a vote in the House ⁓ either next week or the first week of December. I've seen conflicting information about releasing the files that they have on Epstein. And it should be just in case folks in the audience don't know and are confused, these emails that came out yesterday are not part of the Department of Justice or FBI information on Epstein. These came from Epstein's estate.

through a separate effort. So that's why we got that information. ⁓ So obviously more to come on this story, but I, like you, will be curious to see what happens on the conservative side of the aisle. ⁓ And I think it's likely they'll continue to do what they have, which is to downplay and say, well, no, actually what these ⁓ emails suggest is that our president did nothing wrong.

This is a democratic hoax, all those kinds of things that they've been saying. I fully expect that to continue. I would love to see accountability here and I don't know that we will.

Alyssa Burgart (50:14)
Yeah, and you know, I think we would be remiss. This is one case, right? It's one high profile case. ⁓

People are being trafficked all over the world right now, today. People are being abused today. ⁓ And they will never get this sort of attention. Their cases will never get this sort of attention. And there's so many aspects of ⁓ what happens with sexual assault, with child sexual assault, that shows up in hospitals and clinics.

Arghavan Salles (50:55)
Okay.

Alyssa Burgart (50:57)
I'm sure that you and I will spend more time in a future episode talking about like why we care, why you and I care about these kinds of cases. And I think that, ⁓ you know, folks are probably starting to get our vibe. We are really interested in looking at, you know, what is happening in society and what does that mean for our health and wellbeing? What does that, how is it that the things that are happening are a reflection or whatever of the experiences that

you know, patients are having that people are having in trying to live their lives. And

This, if we continue to bungle this situation, I just, it's so embarrassing. So I'm really hoping that these files come out because I want there to be justice for the survivors, because I want people in the highest levels of government to be held accountable for their behavior. And I don't care what party you're in, I want you to be held accountable. I don't care what your job is, I want you to be held accountable. Because you should not be able to abuse people.

Arghavan Salles (51:40)
Thank you.

Thank

Alyssa Burgart (52:05)
and get away with it. ⁓

Obviously it is taking a very, very, very long time to get any semblance of justice for survivors in this case. And unfortunately, you know, for people like Virginia Dufray, ⁓ you know, who has, who has died, she will not have the benefit of seeing what is happening now and what I hope will come in the weeks to come. But yeah, I think this case, I'm, I'm primarily interested in it as a reflection of the

changes that we continue to hope to see throughout society to actually take care of people in this society as opposed to let folks who are in power do whatever they want.

Arghavan Salles (52:50)
And I 100 % agree. And I think others have pointed out and I agree.

that the fact that everything that was in these emails was written in emails just goes to show how little any of these individuals expected to ever have to face accountability.

I mean, it's just quite clear.

Alyssa Burgart (53:11)
I mean, people are also dumb

about emails. don't understand that everything you put in an email can be subpoenaed. mean, these are, you know, okay. So yes, I agree with you. These folks clearly did not expect to ever have a magnifying glass put on them, which I can understand thinking that based on the way that we've treated so many other instances of abuse. Also, these people are, they seem really dumb. Like there's so many dumb things in these emails.

If I wrote an email, I'd be fired. And I don't mean the content. mean, like, literally, these people cannot string together a sentence. I just, truly am like, you guys communicate this way, and this is serious. These are the people who are in power, folks, folks who do not know how to write an email or how to capitalize anything. And I'm not saying that just to be, you know, a grammar queen or whatever. But these people are dumb.

Arghavan Salles (53:44)
Yeah, I mean...

Here's one last thing I'll say on this point of what they dared to put in emails. Larry Summers, again, back to the guy who was the former president of Harvard, this is an actual email he sent, like put in writing in March of 2019 to... Oh, there's many. I I didn't intend to cover this one necessarily, but it's relevant to what we're talking about right now. He says, this is how it starts. I'm not leaving anything out. He says,

Alyssa Burgart (54:30)
god, there's another one?

Arghavan Salles (54:44)
We talked on phone. Then quote, I can't talk later, end quote. Didn't, like D-I-N-T, didn't think I can talk tomorrow. I said, what are you up to? She said, quote, I'm busy, end quote. I said, coy you are. You like the letter U. ⁓ And then I said.

Did you really rearrange the weekend we were going to be together because guy number three was coming? She said, no, his schedule changed after we changed our plans. I said, okay, I got to go call me when you feel like it. Tone was not of good feeling. I didn't, D-I-N-T, want to be in a gift giving competition while being the friend without benefits. To which Epstein replies, she's smart, making you pay for past errors.

Ignore the daddy, I'm going to go out with the motorcycle guy. You reacted well. Annoyed shows caring. No whining showed strength. And I want to just point out that Larry Summers was then and is now married.

and he was getting dating advice from a pedophile.

In writing. In writing. I'm just saying. In writing.

Alyssa Burgart (56:03)
That is poor wave.

Arghavan Salles (56:06)
Yeah, interesting story there. She's also a professor at Harvard. Apparently some of the emails that I have not seen, but I heard mention of, are Larry Summers trying to get Epstein to give money to his wife's work, like a $500,000 donation. Anyway, there's more to that story that I haven't delved deeply into.

But I think there's, yeah, there's more to it than certainly I'm aware of at this moment.

Alyssa Burgart (56:43)
Yeah, I don't know these people. I'm very happy to not know any of these people. And I guess we're gonna learn way more about them than we ever wanted to. Great. ⁓ I think that's enough. That was a lot of Epstein. ⁓ I think that we need to, we need a palate cleanser, Argevan. What is bringing you joy this week? Because we need to clean the palate.

Arghavan Salles (57:09)
What is bringing me joy this week is this book that came out. Book day was this week for ⁓ my friend, Soraya Chamaly. The book is All We Want Is Everything, How We Dismantle Male Supremacy. So, I mean, like on the socials. I don't know her IRL, but she sent me an advance copy for which I'm grateful.

Alyssa Burgart (57:24)
I didn't know you two were friends.

Yeah, all we want is

everything. I've been... That's fabulous. ⁓ It's on my list to buy because I'm a huge fan of hers.

Arghavan Salles (57:42)
Well, she's amazing. So that makes sense. So, that's my joy is that this book came out and and I hope that everyone's going out and buying it. I'm not paid to say this. What is your joy this week?

Alyssa Burgart (57:49)
Excellent.

Excellent, well, we will put a link to that in the show notes. ⁓ I sent this to you earlier, so you've seen it, but there's a comedian, ⁓ American, Japanese comedian named Fumi Abe, and he has a video about how his nephew, his brother-in-law is a doctor, and so his nephew likes to play hospital, and so guess he built a little Lego hospital.

but that the scenes in the hospital are like way too real. So they went to go like play, play with, you know, with his nephew and his nephew was like, there's no beds in the hospital. And ⁓ for people who work in hospitals, you understand like bed shortages are a constant problem.

Arghavan Salles (58:33)
you

Alyssa Burgart (59:19)
and you know, I am raising children and it is really funny when your kids hear you on the phone talking about work, the random, the random depth of knowledge that your kids have about

Arghavan Salles (59:31)
You

Alyssa Burgart (59:34)
the banality of hospitals and the drama. It's pretty intense. ⁓ so I just, I cackled. I thought it was so funny because it's totally something that my kids would have said.

Arghavan Salles (59:45)
Yes, no, you did send me that and I thought it was hilarious, like imagining a little toddler or however old this kid was ⁓ saying, there's no beds.

Very real problem. Anyway, all right, that's it for this week's episode, folks. ⁓ If you didn't like what you heard, yeah, that's right. We don't have any more normal saline. Anyway, that's it for this week's episode. ⁓ If you didn't like what you heard, this has been the Joe Rogan Show. If you liked it, don't forget to subscribe to The Present Illness and leave us a review and tell your friends and anyone else who will listen.

Alyssa Burgart (1:00:02)
There's a drug shortage.

You can follow us on all the places, TikTok, Instagram, at The Present Illness to stay on top of all of our TPI related news.

Arghavan Salles (1:00:30)
And we'll be back next week with more headlines, hot takes, doom scrolling, and hopefully some laughs.

Alyssa Burgart (1:00:35)
Until then, agitate, hydrate, take a nap, and we'll see you next time on The Present Illness. On a final note, don't take advice from random people on the internet or on your podcast. This shows for informational purposes. It's meant to be fun, and it's certainly not medical advice. So please take any medical questions you have to a qualified professional.